MISC RALLY NOTES ================ 15x7 compomotive MO's 6 x $90 (?) + cheap ship ~ $540 Dave Whiteman?? cant remember plus already bought 6x saab rims $240 ... Swedish rule - 70kph in 1st! And this goes with the LFB thing, the people that really are fast, and who really benifit from the LFB thing have cars with brakes optimised for sustained hard use and with significantly more brake power at the rear than a street car, some where like a 2:1 ratio versus a street cars 3.5:1 or more. ... Some useful cross references for various sensors: Timewyse, red +5V, green pulse and black -5V. Alfa 3 wire, used with a magnet, yellow +5V, green pulse and black -5V Brantz 2 wire wheel sensor, brown pulse and blue -5V Brantz screw on gearbox sensors are all red +5V, white pulse and black (or silver) -5V All other brantz sensors use the normal brown, blue and green to match the grey cable coming from the odo. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cage - $1500 seats, belts - $1000 computer - $500 car - $4000 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony, The stuff I posted about is Fel-Pro "Fel Ramic". I think it's ceramic fibers with a metal backing and it looks sort of like exhaust manifold gasket material. The stuff we have on the shelf is P/N 3009, A 12" X 28 1/2" sheet 3/64" thick. There are other thicknesses shown in the catalog and they are all four didget numbers beginning with 300. Let me know what you think about it, but it looks like a good heat shield material to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nwlink.com/~vdb/vw/Engine/Engine_Swaps.html http://www.nwlink.com/~vdb/cars.html As far as I know the 1985-87 GTIs came with the engine you're looking for (1.8l 8v, CIS-E injection, RD or HT code). The 87-92 GTIs came with 16v engines (in 87 they had both kinds I believe). The regular Golfs came with all sorts of engines, see the first link. "1800" (1781) 8V HT (cis-e) 100 Hp, 1985 A2 US GTI/GLI (can be boosted to 102 by cutting a cpu wire to switch to the "Audi" map) "1800" (1781) 8V RD (cis-e) 102 Hp, 1986-1988, A2 US GTI/GLI & Golf GT So if you have seen Matt's 323 that I sold to him you should make your way 75 blocks south to see my new 1985 Golf GTI with the 8v in it! I have had the car for a wopping 2 weeks but I have learned a lot about it and I am more than willing to share. My telephone number is 206 354-9140. I have spent a far number of hours on the phone working on the transmission issues. There are some very important things that should be considered when picking a car, or at least when making the car competive. Mainly the avaiblity of parts for the older 020/9A gearbox that came with most 8v motors is not very good, however there are parts for the 020/BFG box that came with 16v motors. The 020/BFG motor came with a larger main shaft that was also used in later 2.0l motors. If you buy a car sometime soon I would be very willing to sell all the 14" rims and tires, the full susspinsion and other parts I replace off this car as I upgrade it. This is the 5th rally car I have owned/run so I am starting to get an idea of what is important and what is not. Call any time I would be happy to talk to you. Derek Bottles Seattle. -- Hey, the engines all unbolt and a core motor usually can be had for cheeeep so don't let that be the big thing. The last couple of years Rabbit had the 1800 also. I don't do body work so that is the thing I want to avoid in buying a car paint and body work, so I want a fairly straight shell with non sunroof and crank windows. I usually suggest to find something with a blown motor so you get the car cheap and build the motor with the money saved, or at least build the bottom end. But hell if'n yer in the NW, get an XR for 250 buckskis and join the growing ranks of cars in progress now: Erik Heimke from Lynnwood Scott Koch from Seattle Scott Manley from Spokane Derek Bottles when he wads the VW to ratsheeet. Me if I ever get paid for anything They are really just about ideal for a beginner car in the NW. You needn't touch the motor. All the torque you need, enough so you don't need to get a gearset and the final drive, so if ou did get this it would be the icing on the cake. Cage, shell, brakes, cooling, suspention, go. and later convert _THE SAME CAR_ to 4wd with bolt on stuff. John Vanlandingham >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vanlandingham's picks: Brantz International II computer Greytronics intercom Other faves: Peltor intercom NADY motorcycle intercom for $150 with FM radio, only $99 without, is a great performer for the price. That is with headsets and it is made for a loud environment. It has worked as well as I could have wanted for the price. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 323 GTX Buying Guide 1. crankshaft pulley wobble 2. trans synchro - 2nd gear first to go 3. center diff lock (how to test??) 4. distributor springs/weights 5. cracked exhaust (just webbing ok) 6. head gasket (compression should be ~ 140 lbs) 7. clutch 8. electronic dash (can swap, some GTX had analog) 9. wheel bearings 10. warped rotors >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Manspeaker Aurora & 182nd St -> left, past stop pull in after fence w/ 724 & 726 has RRE car with Saab front rotors and RX7 calipers (??) millen panasport prorally wheels selling next year, upgrading to Cosworth Team XYZ, with Ross and ?? Eng from Boeing cheif wrench >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> '88 and up CRX have true 4 wheel independent suspension with coil springs around shocks. http://www.lastditchracing.net/ >Dont forget that there are more aftermarket parts for honda >civic than any other import out there. That's debatable...when it comes to rally, there is WWAAAAYYY more knowledge and aftermarket parts available for VW, both for performance and rally related stuff. Knowledge is key...I've found a couple of VW mentors who know rallying and who know VW's, and it has been priceless...as for Honda, well, there's Brad, who's very helpful, thanks Brad, but I ran into many snags trying to build up the Civic that I just don't find with the VW, thanks Mark, Keith, Chris, etc, etc. >I dont see why a Civic could not match a Rabit or golf from the same year. Again, debatable. Any car could be beefed up enough to beat any other car. Remember, it's 50% mental, 30% skill, and 20% the car itself and how you build it up. Some drivers could win a rally in a Golf (it's been done) beating Subies, Mitsus, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ON GTI's And what all these boys haven't said so far is there is only 1 part that you should be looking for from GTI and that is the 8v big valve, small chamber head. All the other things that are different between a GTi and the basest of the base models you will be throwing away for rally parts, so look for any base model, save the money and put the difference save into real competition parts. - John Vanlandingham >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, it's really simple. Everything is a balance of costs and benifits, and all of usually have to keep an eye on costs, we don't all have rich daddies. So torque is what accellerates is broadly speaking. OK (oi the stinking keyboard is flipping out, it ain't working in either Swedish default or engish as second language, so folks bear with me!) torque IN THE MOTOR, all things being equal, is a function of the interplay between intake closing and "static" compression ratio. The 8v small chamber head is easier to make reasonable 11~1 or so compression ratio, helped by the fact that the valves are in line with bore. This inline valve eases the job fitting of reasonable lift and duration cams for rally use like the ol favorite R2: 308 degrees, 11.6mm lift with virtually no chance of whacking the valves into each other or into the piston when , as inevitably happens under rally conditions, bone head drivers over-rev the living sheeet outa things. The very compact small chamber head and flat top pistons results in a nice detonation resistant combo. Now I've done high some high compression 16v motors for rally, but for same compression ratio, and performance you now have to buy 2 camshafts, a whole bunch more valve springs,maybe more guides, more valve grind, and the chance of screw ups in service. And unless you really spend the money for the real rally cams and then a bunch of dough to give them fuel (we can't really expect people,even beginners to consider what Jon Nichols showed to be viable and effective so recently and use Carburettors! ack! can we!) you will not gain any major advantage. Now that was torque in the motor. The money you saved in the motor you can put into a 4.67 or 5.08 final drive depending on your 5th gear ratio and now you MULTIPLY the torque you motor produces. I am aware of the huge per cent increase in valve area when using like the 16v Golf or Saab 16v 2x32mm intakes vs 1 weeenie 41mm intake in the VW 8v or even 1 44.5 like in my old V4 Saab, and also that you don/t need to lift them quite as much as the bigger valves. But the cost difference don/t seem to justify the small POTENTIAL advantage. We do this all for fun in the end don't we? - John Vanlandingham >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >John, I believe the G2 limit for an 8v engine is 2.4l vs >2.0l for 16v. Yeah a curious and silly anomoly. I say it should be 2000cc.Period. I mean I won my class often enough considering sporadic participation with motors from 1730 to 1886cc with push rod motor with 8v. But thank goodness there weren't any well driven 2.3 Volvos out there at the time. >So in the name of torque, how high can you >push a longblock >displacement-wise, and how much is too >much? Do people use custom cranks >for increased stroke, is >it worth it? Two part question, the first thing to remember is this thread was started as a question from a beginner, and the value of the forum is we know there are many others in the same boat OK. You know there are all sorts of hero VW places making odd combos using this crank and that piston and ending up with 2085cc and more. Well I always say that a correctly built motor is usually better performance and value than a just "big" motor. Like a well done VW 1800, 8v or 16v is a really good motor especially if one dumps the OEM manifolds in and out. But it's not just the bore and stroke that are important and here we get to the question of limits: the block deck height limits how long a rod we can have in the block for a given stroke. The 1800 rod is around 144mm c-c (it has been 10 years since I built a watercooled VW rally motor so you know, drugs, sex and early onset Alzheimers take its toll, eh) so with VWs 86.4 stroke you get a rod to stroke ratio of 1.66 which is right near the bottom of what is just OK for a normal apsirated motor that we expect to rev a bit. Rod/stroke ratio detirmines piston piston dwell at TDC and BDC but for us most important at TDC. Ratios like say my little V4s 1.92 give more dwell at TDC, any ANY longer dwell is "a good thing" when you're filling, firing off the gas, AND WAITING FOR IT TO DEVELOP SIGNIFICANT Combustion pressure at 100 revs a second or 6000rpm. So for a given deck hgt if you increase stoke with a custom or later stock 90mm or more crank, you must either shorten rod c-c or shorten the piston comp hgt, or the piston comes out the top of the block. Usually that's sorta exciting, trust me. With VWs short 32.2 mm pin height you only have so much you can go shorter maybe 4-5mm but thats it. Shorter rod/stroke will kill revability so we don't want to shorten rods. What to do? Don't bother. Build the 1800 with good forged pistons, good rod bolts, the big oil pump and a real cooler (Jaguar would be nice and cheap, do the compression minimum 11:1 and a real cam like the figure for R2. Cheaper and better. Individual runners on the intake side and oh dear more power. But you still have to talk budget. now I believe the 2 liter VW has a taller block, but I'd want to know 2 liter rod c-c before commenting, but since EVERYBODY is making grocery getters I suspect the ratio ain't much better. Could be more interesting to use taller block, shorter crank and long rods, and get a rod/stroke ratio above 1.85, maybe 2:1. That would be an interesting torquey motor that revs. And still makes power, doesn't fall off drasticly after 5000 rpm. Anybody know the deck hgt and rod c-c for the 2 liter? John Vanlandingham >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RE: CV joint and clutch recommendations for an A2 GTI 8v The "first step" upgrade for the clutch is to go to a 16v pressure plate (factory part). Don't try and use a 16v clutch disc, though, the splines are different. As for the CVs, Lobro is as good or better than stock. I don't personally know of any upgrade CV joints. Though that certainly doesn't mean they aren't out there. -- Unless you're planning to run a 3.1 L VR6 pumping out over 350 hp, the O.E 100mm CV joints in the GTi should be up to the task as long as you don't go to extremes with the ride height (high or low) and over-extend (stress) the joints. Though I do know this guy who makes titanium joints and gun drilled axles. Hmmm... Get a Sachs Sport Clutch Kit and forget about it. I've got one in stock. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I use ETHYL-GLYCOL rather than poly-glycol (coolant). It will allow plain water to handle heat better than coolant (in some cases up to 40% better) This is what some track racers use instead of coolant. It is very expensive but worth the invetment, plus Ethyl-Glycol you can drink and not poison yourself unlike coolant. I have personally experienced a drop of more than 20 deg in my "stage" temperatures. Carlos Lopez E.T. Racing Car # 151 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A2 boneyard hopups You can use corrado front 11' brakes, but will need at least 15' wheels. Corrado master cylinder, you can use scirocco 16v or GTI rear brakes. You can use a corrado dash if you wanted too, a corrado tranny if you wanted to go hydraulic (would need pedal box etc....) Depending on your class, you can use pretty much any motor from any year, check www.vwvortex.com. -- All of the stub axles for the back have the same bolt pattern. You can bolt rear disks from anything with rear disks (you can even switch to the 5x100 wheels, if you really wanted to). You do not have to change the master cylinder (necessarilly). I put disks on the back of my Rabbit, upgraded the fronts (11" with Wilwood 4-pots), and I still have a little extra rear bias. If you want more rear bias, or plan on putting in a proportioning valve, this can be good. The Corrado uses a front/back brake circuit with a proportioning valve (stock) rather than a diagonal split, so you might find one of those amusing to play with. The Corrado tranny is stonger and has a cable shift (the cable shift allows you to put the shifter wherever you want). There are two different Corrado trannies. Midway through 1990 (actually, October), VW switched from 195 to 205 tires, keeping the same profile. The later years, due to the taller tire, got lower gearing. Oddly, they did not change the ring and pinion, they changed all of the gears. If you wanted a Corrado tranny, you could get a clutch master cylinder from almost anything, or you could get the Corrado unit with the whole pedal assembly (the pedal assembly just bolts in as one unit). The basic block style has not changed for a long time. The new 20V heads still uses the same headgasket shape as the first 1.8 8V. Seats are swappable from just about anything, if you are not buying a racing seat. I still have a 1990 Corrado tranny (the taller gearing, sorry) with the shift box. I believe the Passat used the same tranny. If you are interested, let me know. The dash was also mentioned (though I do not know why you would want it). I have a dash, with instruments, switches, ventilation, etc., if anyone is interested. I bought a Corrado as a parts car for my Rabbit, a while back, and I still have parts that I wont be using. I already sold the rear brakes (I already had disks) and I threw the fronts away. Poke your head in as many VW/Audi cars as you can. Very little actually ever changes. If something looks like it might bolt on, it more than likely will. Matthew By the way, if you want dimensions from anything I have, even if you don't want to buy them, just let me know. -- I run 15" wheels with RPI adapters. It is a nice setup, but more than the car needs. A Rabbit, likely an A2 as well, is better off with 10" brakes. Maybe 10.5", if you wanted to make some of your own parts. Even with 15" wheels, the wheel clearance is very small and gravel would cause problems. I bought the brakes because I was planning on putting a G60 motor in. Now, the G60 is going to go in with whole new front suspension, so it is a moot point. I am currently putting the Corrado knuckles on the Rabbit, so I bought new adapters. I have the adapters for putting 11" rotors and Wilwood 4-pots on an A1 if anyone wants to buy them for a street car, but I would not recommend 11" disks for Rally. Matthew >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GTI suspension Ok, I know this has been covered many times before, but I can't find any pertinent info with a search of the old forums. So what are you all running for shocks and springs on your A2 GTI's? Bilstein group ? ?, coil overs or no?, spring rates? Where can you purchase said equipment and how much $(approx.) DMS is too much $$ for a poor Canuck. Thanks. -- Well, I am no expert but I am using a koni strut with 2.5" coilovers. The secret to keeping the koni's from destoying themselves is to use a long snubber (3-4 inch) The benifit from konis is the price, plus you may even be able to pick up a used set from a road racer. I have heard of people running everything from 350lb Front - 280lb Rear to 225lb Front - 325lb Rear, so I guess set up really depends on how you like your car to feel. Dave Cizmas Controlled Catastrophe Racing #591 G2 GTI #86 ITB GTI -- 250 front.....175 rear is a good place to start. I like my bilsteins. Id also check into H&R's dune buggy kit, but you might save money in the long run by getting DMS to start with. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A2 GTI fuel systems Get the Autotech Adjustable module. Or go to the Scirroco.org links page and follow the links to "Build your own CIS-E fuel enrichment device." Wilson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Skid plates make one yourself. or at least design it and take your picture to your local sheetmetal shop to be made. believe me it is good experience and is about the easiest thing you can fabricate for your car. derek bottles website has a good description of how to make one for a 323 but would be a good place to start. www.11tenths.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Filters Foam is nice but cleaning is also an issue, KN or other oiled gauze will filter even the water on the way thru. They will not light off when motors back-fire the same way as foam does (presumes a cam witrh a bit of overlap, but we are real manly rally mem so we have nice cams, don't we?) Paper is OK but paper when wet swells and will restrict flow drasticly so think about htat if there's going be water spashing on your element. John Vanlandingham >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=35637 http://www.galls.com/shop/viewProductDetail.jsp?item=HS017 http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=46701 http://www.expeditionexchange.com/jackall/ I have modified my stock scissor jack with a 19mm drive, and use a cordless impact to drive the jack. http://www.res-q-me.com/default_new.asp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tow vehicles: Three words: Am bu lance I got mine cheap on E-bay. Plus it's fun to run the lights and siren after a good finish. These are usually equipped with the following: - Flood lights on all 4 sides, and gobs of great lighting inside - Generator or BIG inverters for 120V for extra lights, tools, etc. (mine came with a 4Kw onan generator) - Positrac (if from a northern clime). Nice in the snow -Wheelchair lift (sometimes) which is great for loading/unloading 500lb toolboxes at service. The crew loves this feature. - Nitrogen bottle compartments and plumbing (for airtools). - Passthru to rear compartment, which usually has at least two more seats with seatbelts (so crew can actually be comfortable on trips) - Big radiator, cooling louvers, and auxilliary fans (designed for idling extended periods, but great for towing too) - Low clearance and low entry at rear (mine is only 8' tall) - Great rear A/C and heat. - Barn doors and loads of storage - Dual wheels and 1-ton suspensions to handle big loads Regarding Diesel vs Gas... I have a 460 gas motor and it gets about 6.5 mpg while towing. BUT, I can tow at 85 mph on flat ground no problem. We averaged better than 60 mph for 2,000 miles going to Maine and back, but probably spent $750 in gas alone. My other truck (which is for sale BTW)is a diesel, and is much slower. A Turbo diesel ambulance is the best option I'd say. See ebay. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EXAMPLE CARS.... 85 VW Golf GTI 8v Gr 2 car with current log book -8v motor with HOR cam and lightend fltwheel -Oil cooler -Tight 5sp gear box -Bilstein and KYB struts -Michelin and Kumho tires -Momo seats -Terra Trip 303 -Aluminum front skid -Plastic skids over brake lines, fuel lines, fuel pump etc. -Catz and Cibie light bar -Dash mounted fuse box