I'm not sure I'd agree with that after seeing the folks that come out to RIM and the way Ray gets real companies paying to display their wares for "spectators".

It’s by no means the end all but getting spectators in the woods is the start….

Andrew Sutherland
UniversalRally.com

ETS: In other words having 5000 spectators walk slowly by your car is more important to a sponsor than having the car go fast by 500 spectators out in the woods.

http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID4/593.html

without any promotion there will be nobody watching to get excited. Sorry, but the egg has to come before the chicken, in this case at least

I can tell you with authority (how many rallies have you been to this year?) that there is excitement for both the front running Subarishis AND the old rear wheel drive cars (mainly because they are usually very sideways). It is the stuff in between that people are a bit ho-hum about (apologies to those people, but I tell it how I see it)

You only need to read the Subaru forums to see that there are many many people that follow rally specifically to see the Subarishis and the stuff that gets you excited is just an added attraction.

I can totally agree. Put Doug Shepherd in all the cars and there will be no "boring" cars. The cars are fine, we just need to speed up the people behind the wheel. There are those who are fast and/or exciting (we all know who they are). There are those that go beyond 11/10ths at the spectator areas (like they should ).

The downfall is that with more speed comes more money to fix broken/smashed things. More speed and excitement brings more people to watch. More people brings more sponsor interest, which may bring more money.

(This is all easy for me to say since I don't compete.)

$.02

Pete

How to accomplish this? We need more opportunities to get seat time! And so far, that's not easy (or cheap) to do for the average hobbiest which is what most of us are.

Unfortunately, it all comes back to money. Will the day ever come when a sponsor will cough-up the $50,000+ per race to cover everyones entry fees? Tack on contingency money on top of that and then it gets pretty cheap (aside from building the car in the first place). Too bad this will probably never happen at the club/regional level, so there we have the usual high costs again.

Believe you me, if I had the answer, I'd have done it already. I don't, so I just stay in the woods and promote via photos.

Pete

lets see if the promotion part of it could be put intop a perspective that Morgan can understand.

Lets pare down the activity portion of the equation until what we had was not only no sideways action on a gravel turn, but no car.
Just a gravel turn.
What sort of business plan could Morgan concoct to promote that?

>
>without any promotion there will be nobody watching to get
>excited. Sorry, but the egg has to come before the chicken,
>in this case at least
Well _you_ may think so.
I didn't need anybody to promote driving sideways to me.
Simply seeing it, THE THING ITSELF, with no comments no promotion but good sideways driving, was enough to make me want to try it.

>
>I can tell you with authority
Wooooooooooooooooo Ooooooooooooo!

(how many rallies have you
>been to this year?)
The last one was last year Wild Waste, boring.
The only time I get out of the goddam garage is to make errands to get parts of to go to China and visit family and talk with the boys there about building the sport.

that there is excitement for both the
>front running Subarishis AND the old rear wheel drive cars
>(mainly because they are usually very sideways).

It is the
>stuff in between that people are a bit ho-hum about
>(apologies to those people, but I tell it how I see it)

Jeeeeeesuss H. Keeeerist, I'm going to agreee with something from Morgan?????!!!! Shheeeeeet the bed!
I will say that the British were pretty impressive, but not so much after that.

>
>You only need to read the Subaru forums to see that there
>are many many people that follow rally specifically to see
>the Subarishis and the stuff that gets you excited is just
>an added attraction.

Oh the Subaru forums, that fount of erudition and knowledge!!!!!

Oh jeeeeeezzus I think I just peeed myself laughing.
I am strong but even I have limits.....

So tell us the promotional program for the empty corner.

John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Hot chicks.

Pete

I oh-so-agree.

http://www.umbrellagirlsusa.com/

http://www.umbrellagirlsusa.com/photogallery/SCCAinfineon0703/

I KNOW! There's the suspension at FULL DROOP and it's STILL in the wheel well. That guy should be wearing gloves, too.

ACP
Flirting with the rally flag girls...uh, right.

>
>lets see if the promotion part of it could be put intop a
>perspective that Morgan can understand.
>
>Lets pare down the activity portion of the equation until
>what we had was not only no sideways action on a gravel
>turn, but no car.
>Just a gravel turn.
>What sort of business plan could Morgan concoct to promote
>that?

Way to dodge the question John! You were the one stating some sort of epiphany that Excitement is the Key, well I asked you how you plan to get people out in the woods so they can get excited? If no one knows that the event is happening, there will be no one to get excited. Care to answer?

>Well _you_ may think so.
>I didn't need anybody to promote driving sideways to me.
>Simply seeing it, THE THING ITSELF, with no comments no
>promotion but good sideways driving, was enough to make me
>want to try it.

Good for you.
So how did you find rally in the first place? Were you hiking in the woods and happened across it? Did someone take you to a rally (BTW that qualifies as promotion, someone promoted it to you)?
Hate to break it to you, but word of mouth does not cut it anymore. Promotion is needed to get people to come out and see it in the first place, then they can get "excited" on the merits of the sport.

Main Entry: pro·mo·tion
Pronunciation: pr&-'mO-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the act or fact of being raised in position or rank : PREFERMENT
2 : the act of furthering the growth or development of something especially : the furtherance of the acceptance and sale of merchandise through advertising, publicity, or discounting

Get it?

>The last one was last year Wild Waste, boring.
>The only time I get out of the goddam garage is to make
>errands to get parts of to go to China and visit family and
>talk with the boys there about building the sport.

One rally in the past year, woopie! Well that hardly makes you qualified as an expert to say what people want to see or don't want to see
Just because you did not enjoy it, does not mean that other people did not as well

I don't care about your excuses why you don't go to more events, we all have things to do, and if you can't be there then don't act like you know what people are reacting to

>Jeeeeeesuss H. Keeeerist, I'm going to agreee with something
>from Morgan?????!!!! Shheeeeeet the bed!
>I will say that the British were pretty impressive, but not
>so much after that.

So you can do better?

>Oh the Subaru forums, that fount of erudition and
>knowledge!!!!!

Same as here.
But we are not talking about knowledge, we are talking about what people outside of ss.com are interested in at rally

>
>Oh jeeeeeezzus I think I just peeed myself laughing.
>I am strong but even I have limits.....

sorry to hear you have lost control of your bodily functions, first sign of getting old ya know

And BTW aren't you building an AWD turbo rally car for yourself, sounds pretty hypocritical to me. OK I'll give you that it is something different, but i am sure it will be just as boring to watch

At least you have spiced things up a bit, SS has been a bit slow since Spitzner left

http://www.musketeerracing.com/photos/2004/snodrift/snodrift1.jpg

http://www.musketeerracing.com/photos/2003/baie/baie1.jpg

http://www.musketeerracing.com/photos/2003/defi/defi10.jpg"

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.

I doubt he categorically meant everyone (Though I make no guarantees...), but the trend is there. In quickly skimming the results for MFR and some other recent events (include clubs, so who knows), there are a couple fast 4wd cars, the well driven 2wd, and then all the rest, usually with a large contingent of Mitsu/Subarus (old and new).

From my experience spectating these last few years, you get wowed by the pace of the front runners, then there's a rather dull part where a whole bunch of shiney new-er cars go by on cruise control, and then some screaming/fun 2wd econoboxes. Not just SCCA events though, same thing happened at SBBR, for example at my corner the spectator responses were:

* Jamacians / Thompson - Gasps and "oh my god"-esque comments

* Mid pack - "hmmmmmmm......"

* Sprongl swift / a pair of VW's / Capri - Big hoots, hollers + cheers.

When I'm standing at a corner and see the first few cars, the feeling is "someday", like they're unreachable. When the midpack goes by, there isn't much. And when you get to the on-edge 2wd, it's "hey, THAT looks like fun". It's those last ones that are the motivation for me to drive 4 hours to go stand in the cold/wet/buggy/snowy/ woods with a radio and make sure nobody comes off a sideroad at 1am.

In truth, I don't know if I cheered more for you when you were in the Lada or the Evo, but the point is you have your foot down in both cases. Given equal drivers, I think I'd actually rather see an event with 40 grp 2/5/production cars as opposed to 10 world rally cars. They arn't even all that loud....

Tom Grossmann

In my shop, there's a fine line dividing "excitement" and "excretement".

I always wondered why Pontiac was so proud to be "selling excre...ahem...excitement."

...and just for a laugh...

The new Pontiac 7-series! (the Bavariac).

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26293

What I'm getting at Dennis is that the whole put your car in front of the Home depot and tell them about 'rally racing' when the car in question maybe averages 32mph on the stages is a neaseating lie.

>
>>
>>Sorry folks, to most guys on the street who I've talked into
>>watching in recent years, most are not jazzed about the
>>modestly driven (at best) Sububishis and Mitsuburus.
>
>Ok, so we all suck in "big buck AWD cars", but we would
>magically be transformed in Finnish rally masters if we
>bought shitbox Volvos?

I can't comment on YOUR driving dennis, never seen you drive.
And I didn't suggest you or anybody else would be transformed into anything if you sold your big buck AWD car.
But I didn't suggest you to buy a shitbox Volvo.

It is your presumption that a Volvo would be a shitbox.
Does that say something about your fabrication and preparation skills?

Most of the guys I've talked to in
>the last couple years ARE jazzed up about "modestly driven"
>(although they don't seem to think so) Subies and Mitsus.
>In fact, many of them aren't aware that people still rally
>old 2wd cars. The world does exist beyond Scandanavia and
>the Pacific North West John.

Noooooo! Really???!!!! I'll make a note of that! I have however little intreest in this forum of what goes on in say Morrocco or Alabama or even Southern California.
>
>
>>
>
>>Well yeah but more importantly VIGOUROUS driving is what
>>makes the folks cheer like Brazillian soccer fans, vigourous
>>driving in a car that those watching IMAGINE they could own
>>and drive.
>
>Newsflash John, despite the posturing on SS, most people
>drive their AWD cars pretty damn vigorously. Oh sure we
>talk about "saving the car" and "not pushing till it's paid
>off" but that all gets thrown out the window when the
>codriver hits about two on his countdown. If someone isn't
>seeing "vigorous" driving, it's becuase of one of three
>reasons:
>
>1. They didn't go to the rally.
>2. The organizers picked a crappy spectating location.
>3. The TV producers didn't get it on film.

The driving between approx 4th to around 20th at the last event with the full cast of Brits that I saw was uniformly dull.

>
>Neither of these are the driver's fault. We go out and
>light it up regardless of who is or isn't watching.
>
>And BTW, last I checked you could pick up a brand spanking
>new Evo or Subie at the dealership for under $30k, with a
>warrenty, a kick ass stereo, no rust, and airbags.

And what the hell does THAT have to do with what we need in order to have a viable show to get people jazzed about rallying?

>>
>
>>Promotion of a parade of clone cars which seldom rev more
>>than 3200 rpm like we've seen in the last 4 years is a hard
>>thing to do.
>>
>
>Uhh, my throttle kicker is set at around 2200 rpm, so are
>you suggesting I driver in a 1000 rpm powerband? Most of my
>driving is done between 4000 and 7000, but I usually pop the
>rev limiter (7800) a half dozen times or so per stage.

maybe thats why YOU are having some OK results against the 'regular suspects'
>
>>
>>John Vanlandingham
>>Seattle, WA. 98168
>>
>>Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
>John, instead of whining
Dennis, I'm not whining, to me it sounds as though YOU are whining.

about all the drivers who suck with
>their Suberats and Misterbichis, why don't you actually show
>up to a rally for once, get in one of your beloved piece of
>shit Volvos, Xratty's, or Saabs, and show us how a "real"
>driver does it. I'm sure the forests will be teeming with
>enthused spectators to see how you do it.

I have and they were.
Right now Dennis I am busy building cars cars cars, motors motors motors, getting married, and soon to be having a kid.
I'm 51 Dennis, and i have done motorsports or worked in it since I was 16.
I am doing things now which I have put off for a long long time and life is great.
Now granted Dennis what I have done was before your time and before the Internet so it effectively doesn't exsist, right?
But I ask you: how many more people would think they could jump into this sport if they saw cars that the average guy could afford driven with vigour, and sideways.
How spactacular would it appear if YOU were to drive a rwd Whatever at the same speed and attack as your 4wd car?
How many more miles could you afford to tow with a simpler car?
How much less painful to the pocket book would it be to bash a rwd xxx into a stump than a evoburu?
You wrote elsewhere:
"I got a ride in his SAAB at LSPR 97 I think. Sam and I were both SAE mini-baja guys, and when I saw what he did, it helped me realize that maybe someday I could do it too. That car was super fast, and Sam was nuts. I remember barely being able to see of the door sill cuz the codriver seat was so low, and I'm 6'2". Afterwards he and his codriver (can't remember his name) signed a poster for me that I still have somewhere. Great"

You know who found and secured Sams first rally car?
And his second and his third?
And got him his first cam, headers and pair of Weber DCOES before he was even back from towing the first car home?
Who got him all the real rally bits in virtually every car he rallied until he got the deal from Saab USA?
And encouraged him to keep it simple and don't sweat what folks were saying about being to wild?

Yeah, me.

Sam did what he did because he was smart enough to keep the expenditures under control which allowed him to DRIVE harder and crash occasionally AND STILL COME BACK.
And he spent a good amount of time talking about racing overseas, how I had done Professional moto-cross and details of how he could do the same with cars, with amounts, addresses, phone numbers, and costs.
He even went so far as to make inquiries about getting himself transferred to enable himself to be based in UK and do the events in France and Belgium I was showing him the details of.

Now he chose not to go overseas, and stayed in Seattle and had a good time until the budget and the stakes went up astronomically, and 2 years and he was tired of it and quit and left.

So in a way, my old long song about 'keep it simple, sturdy, and drive drive drive' and "a good plan today is better than a perfect plan tommorrow" helped keep going the guy who had a big influence on your decision to participate.
Sam undrstood, and understood when he had carried things too far (as did his old long time co-driver Rob Walden).

Simple, more, crash boom back and still see you next time.
>
>Dennis Martin
>dennis@mamotorsports.com
>920-432-4845

John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

So, lemme get this straight. Unless you can achieve WRC speeds, or you drive like John Lane, you should not attempt to promote the sport? I think we had this argument before on the old forum. It didn't make sense then, and it doesn't now. Just because someone isn't the fastest guy on the stage doesn't mean he can't talk a good talk and get people excited about the sport. Even the WORST drivers can usually dig up a few good sideways pictures to wow the masses with.

>>
>I can't comment on YOUR driving dennis, never seen you
>drive.

And apparently you haven't seen anybody else drive this year either. A lot of guys weren't so hot last year. Guess what? They stuck with it and put a season under their belts, and this year they ain't so bad.

>
>It is your presumption that a Volvo would be a shitbox.
>Does that say something about your fabrication and
>preparation skills?
>

John, all cars are junk, remember. Sheesh, you taught me that!

>
>Noooooo! Really???!!!! I'll make a note of that! I have
>however little intreest in this forum of what goes on in say
>Morrocco or Alabama or even Southern California.
>>

No kidding! But the rest of have interest as too what goes on in say Alabama or SoCal. There just happens to be rally people who live in those areas, and they have just as much input into the sport as you do. US rally is not the sole property of liberal suburbanites from Seattle. (holy crap, I sound like Howard Dean!)

>>And BTW, last I checked you could pick up a brand spanking
>>new Evo or Subie at the dealership for under $30k, with a
>>warrenty, a kick ass stereo, no rust, and airbags.
>
>And what the hell does THAT have to do with what we need in
>order to have a viable show to get people jazzed about
>rallying?

Well, you stated that we should be rallying cars that people can actually drive and afford. Lotsa people can afford a WRX. It's probably easier to find a good WRX than a good Saab Sonnet.

>>John, instead of whining
>Dennis, I'm not whining, to me it sounds as though YOU are
>whining.

I'm not whining, I'm defending myself and the rest of the "slow boring" drivers who go out every rally and lay it on the line, only to be called hacks on SS buy some putz who didn't even bother to show up at the event.

>
>I have and they were.

Have and were. That's just great. It's such a help to the rest of us that you once drove and people once watched you do it. Lots of people have seen me drive as well.

>I'm 51 Dennis, and i have done motorsports or worked in it
>since I was 16.
>I am doing things now which I have put off for a long long
>time and life is great.
>Now granted Dennis what I have done was before your time and
>before the Internet so it effectively doesn't exsist, right?

My codriver is 57, and he's been doing this for about as long as it's been around. Ran POR as FIA event,watched Woolf and Whittaker die, witnessed the epic Millen/Buffum battles, etc.... What do you think we talk about on those 60 mile transits? I'm no expert, but I have a pretty good idea about what rally was like in the "glory years."

>But I ask you: how many more people would think they could
>jump into this sport if they saw cars that the average guy
>could afford driven with vigour, and sideways.

They do see this already. At every rally this is a plethora of well driven inexpensive cars, along with some not so well drive expensive ones, some well driven expensive ones, and some not so well driven inexpensive ones. (say that tens times fast!)

>How spactacular would it appear if YOU were to drive a rwd
>Whatever at the same speed and attack as your 4wd car?

I'd be dead if I tried to drive a RWD car the same speed as my Evo.

>How many more miles could you afford to tow with a simpler
>car?
>How much less painful to the pocket book would it be to bash
>a rwd xxx into a stump than a evoburu?

Same. Once you get over the initial cost, the event costs are roughly the same for the Evo vs. something else. It will eat tires at a high rate if you let it, and it uses expensive race gas, but other than that it isn't bad. The car doesn't break often, and bodywork is bodywork, whether on a Datsun or Mitsu.

BTW, kudos for John elsewhere on this thread for perhaps the best quote of the year. Re drifting: "It is to rally what porn is to cinema." Pure friggin genius man. But even if they pooh pooh it, most guys have a hard time looking away from porn. I'm afraid drifting is the same way.

Dennis Martin
dennis@mamotorsports.com
920-432-4845

Second best quote!

Learn to read ferchristsakes.
I did not slam them for driving sideways.
I found watching guys drive around on a big flat piece of asphalt in big circles essentially again and again and again in circles incredibly stupid.

And it is easy.
>
>It's interesting that everyone and their dad claim that
>drifting is so easy and that it's such a joke. Anyone that
>saw the drift exhibition on the tarmac of Pike's Peak this
>year knows otherwise.

Its perfectly smooth, no bumps worth talking about , no variation of surface NOTHING a person needs to make any sort of big deciusions or judgements about.
It is a made up artifical sport for Japanese kids who have no rally roads and whose federation doesn't care if rally is a small sport for a rich elite, so they paly at one element of what makes a rally.
Its to rally what Porno is to cinema.

However, I'll have to agree that the
>guys doing donuts with both hands out the window and stuff
>like that is horribly lame.
Its SOLEY about hype, so why should YOU call that lame?
>
>Aaron McConnell
>
>
>
>

John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Drifting is a disgusting fad that has roots and will stay.

If you're so incredibly skilled to say doing it how they do it is easy then enter the next D1 gran prix and win it. There is a lot of money to be made, if nothing else you could justify doing it for the cash then walk away with only 6 weeks or so invested.

My bet is that not only won't you do it but you couldn't do it....

Who the ##### cares?
>
>
>If you're so incredibly skilled to say doing it how they do
>it is easy then enter the next D1 gran prix and win it.
>There is a lot of money to be made, if nothing else you
>could justify doing it for the cash then walk away with only
>6 weeks or so invested.

Hey whoever the hell YOU are try to read this really carefully OK
IT IS -SIMPLISTIC- AND LIMITED IN WHAT IT IS.
IT _DOES NOT INTERST ME._
Maybe because I'm not a 14 or 22 year old boy who has never done anything in life.
>
>
>
>My bet is that not only won't you do it but you couldn't do
>it....

Again, just who the ##### are you numbnuts?

I got paid pretty darn good for going sideways on corners covered in mud and grass and ruts FOLLOWED by jumps and uphills and downhills and more jumps.
And the following week a differnt 3-4km course in another country.
And the next week another, for years.
I've done it in a FAR HARDER ENVIROMENT than drive silly cars sideways
on smoooth asphalt.
And I did it for years.
So shut the ##### up whoever the hell you are.

So inc ase you are actually thick as a brick as you SEEM, read this:
It doesn't INTEREST ME, too simplistic, GOT IT?

You wanna go wank off from all the excitement it brings you, GET A ROOM>

John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

If everything is so bad, why do you continue to hang around?

Pete

Why doesn't everyone pull out of Iraq, it's "bad" there too...

...maybe John is part of some sort of SCCA-defying "Coalition of the Willing"? Or maybe he just makes money supporting the sport and would rather not see it go further under...it's too close to the weekend to call!

I also don't remember or see where I gave a hoot if you thought I had any point or worth or not.

It doesn't matter who I am, it matters who you are, a loud mouth malcontent that is sitting on the sidelines and criticizes everything expecting his opinion to be valued as gold.

You might have gotten paid a ton to rally, lucky you, but guess what John? Lamenting tirelessly over the old days while sitting on the sideline and belittleing everything thats going on hurts and even undermines your credibility.

I am so sick of drifting in the media and stupid teenagers, with that said, the only thing that is worse is people thinking they are so superior and that top level drifting is incredibly easy. Drifting in and of itself is easy, its not that exciting, and its not new by any means. But to go out and hold a drift for 100+ yards within inches of a wall at 70 mph does take skill, to go out and shadow a driver as closely as possible aiming to be close enough to hold up a basketball between the cars and be perfectly parallel, oh yeah, the only thing you know about that drivers plans is the rough outline meaning you have to react extremely quickly and accurately.

I wish drifting in general would be seen for what it is, but to call what the top drivers in drifting (not just in the US) do in competitions incredibly easy and simplistic is narrow minded at best.

You have so much sheer bitterness in you that maybe your life would improve if you figured out how to move on.

You will see that he is in this for YOU. He is not mean and wishes only the best for rally and rallyists here in the US. And, that is precisely the reason he participates in these threads.

He wants people to be able to build an inexpensive, competitive car that they will be able to drive FAST and afford to come back after they wreck it. All he wants to do is let people know that they dont need the latest and greatest and most expensive car to be competitive IF they build an older car PROPERLY. That way, there will be more competitors at each event driving really fast and really exciting to watch because they can afford to and have equipment that will let them....

Go ahead, I am sure he would love to talk.

So your the one having his love child!

His over simplification of things and complaints without actaul alternatives or suggestions simply just doesn't seem to work, atleast not to me.

If he cares that much why not be more positive in suggesting changes instead of so heavily critical.

Maybe his tone comes accross wrong but I see nothing but criticism and complaints.....

Look punk, somebody just today said you're really not a complete dip wad, and that you're like 19 or something but they said you're OK, so since all I see is you cheerleading and gushing how wonderful everything is and getting all bristley if somebody suggests that in your tender young years you JUST PERHAPS haven't seen much and don't know SH!T I've been trying to give you a fair chance.

However,
If you possesed more than rudimentary reading skills, and could possibly retain a concept, and pwerhaps understood that a consistant descrption of a problem CONTAINS FOR THOSE THAT CAN READ SUGGESTIONS OF AN ALTERNATIVE, AND INDEED SUGGESTIONS OF POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS then perhaps you might 'get' a littel more out of what those who you don't agree might be suggesting.
But alas, you seem unable to see suggestions unless they are written in a pedantic and simplist way.
And I'm sure then you would snivell that byou are being spoken to in a condescending manner.

Isn't it odd that some of those who understand what I'm suggesting in my consistant advocacy of simpler stronger cars run hard are people actully trying to build their cars, or who have done so already.

And those who mosy vehemently are angered are those who don't even have cars, or who buy them complete.

Anyway Kevvie I'll post somethiong in a second just for you really positive, cause I am the most optimistic guy I know.

20 years this year saying "next year in Jerusalem!"
(In reference to rally)
(and Kevvie-boy, if you don't understand just how optimistic that saying is, then you're just beyond hope.)

John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

you and excitement. start the fastest cars at the back of the field. When they catch the slow cars at the spectator areas...then you have excitement.

Up here in Canada...you hear about rallying, and figure you'll go watch. So you end up going to Tall Pines..You end up late for the stage, because you missed the bus to the spectator area. So you miss the first 5-6 cars...you get there....unfortunately you realise "hey...i could do this in my hill-billy pickup truck while combing my mullet"

However...it is the same in almost all forms of motorsport...mostly in this continent also.

What we have an abbundance of is "wallet racers" not necessarily only in rallying but all types of motorsport.

We we seriously lack is a pile of people with true TALENT, running with little to no money, who actually drive the PISS out of their cars.

To me...at Tall Pines, the day stages end up being painfully boring, when you get to Castledine's and everyone starts pulling beers out of their bags, and there is a PARTY going on, and every couple mins a rally car happens to pass by.

Ever noticed that when someone rolls or wrecks in a spectator area they get the MOST cheers?? that is because it's exciting.

Seeing 15 WRX's drive through a corner at the same speed gets boring real quick.

Maybe i'm not one to speak, as i haven't rallied yet, but Tall Pines should be our second event. Hell....i'm not going to go out and win the event...so...why not pull into a spectator area, rip a HUGE donut and then carry on (ala Panizzi). If it gets those spectators off their feet, people take some pictures of my 20 year old car, it's going to get WAY more publicity for my sponsors. Everyone is going to remember that car that pulled the donut, remember that it was white/orange/blue, and they might take actually take notice of my sponsors. A car driven just like everyone else isn't going to turn any heads.

and i completely agree with the drifting thing...Those cars make lots of noise, smoke, and put on a show.. it's stupid...but it gets attention and wows crowds.

However....the way those cars from Japan are set-up....i think my mom could drift them half decently.

btw..john..you get my email?

That doesn't mean it isn"t exciting inside the car. As a spectator it lacked something. I won't be a spectator at all with the new behind the ribbon rules. I don't like intersections. Give me a down hill off camber sweeper, or a super fast banked blind lined with trees or a cliff. I want to watch drivers.

Dick 'I've seen and raced with the B cars' Fuhrman

PS: I'll be at WW with the Cook Bros. Pro-Rally Timing Team (as a charter member formed 19 years ago, I believe)

Edit: I had to comment on Chris's reverse starting order. A great idea. This is used on oval tracks all over America. Passing is exciting. Being passed is exciting. Especially on tree lined roads.
I brought this up once and people thought I was crazy. 'Why that is dangerous'. Racing is dangerous. I laugh at danger...A haha haha haha

1. We need more club/regional/local rallies (and rallycross and brisk tsd) to teach more folks how to drive better, with less cost-risk-hassle.

2. We need to get more cars into those events, by hook or by crook, trickle-down or hand-me-down cars from Pro/National or factory teams, grassroots bombers -- it's all good. We need more cars, and more drivers competing at s/lower levels or we're never going to have more competitive fields at the top.

3. The best drivers will always attract cheers, photographers, limited tv coverage, and even more limited sponsorship -- regardless of what they're driving. Those who can afford to step up from there to a top car and contest the overall results will get MORE of all of the above.

4. There's success and respect to be won at every level of competition. And there's room for everybody in this sport (and in this forum). Big tent!

5. The SPORT benefits from having broad grassroots support *and* the catalysing presence of manufacturer and sponsor support, top-down. We need both, and there's no such thing as too much of either.

6. Anything we can do to prevent this sport for being *only* the playground of gentlemen playboys is a good thing. Ever been to a rally in Europe? There are GOOD drivers spanking older -- cars but well-sorted and very competitive -- Wicked Hard, and then going back to workaday jobs in the trades. Where are these people in the US? Not in the woods with us, not enough of them. If you disagree, for whatever reason, go to Quebec and see how good it can be. Quebec, or Wales, or Ireland. I've not been anywhere else, but in all of those place rallying is something marginally less common than weekend golf is in the states -- plumbers and electricians do it, and cops. And aristocrats, and professional ringers too. However good they all are, some of their KIDS will be better.

7. Anything we can do to unify the Canadian and American series (both club/regional and pro/national) will pay off in all sorts of ways. We should make it as easy as possible for teams at any level, in any class, to cross borders and organizational boundaries.

8. Media. Coverage. We need more. Too much is never enough. If Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh their frothy-mouthed fat-fuck self-same selves came out to Ojibwe to do on-air coverage, I would kiss them and call them brother. We need more press or we have this tree falling in the woods, one-hand-clapping problem ad infinitum. Go Morgan, et al, go -- the sport needs you, and you're all doing great work.

9. TV. Here's where we need some fucking inspiration. If I have to watch another hour of celebrity texas hold'em or juco cheerleading tournaments on ESPN2, when I could be watching THE MOST EXCITING MOTORSPORT ON THE PLANET more than once a quarter, on a six-week delay... fercrissakes it's enough to give me a heart attack just thinking about it. Please, somebody, get Widow Croc to donate $200MM to SCCA or NASA or ESPN or FOX or NPR or PBS or *anybody* who will organize better television coverage of this sport. There is a generation of young north americans out there right now (another one!) passing us by, when they could be the/our future. These are Travis Patrana's generation. They've been watching the X-games, and playing Colin McRae on PS2 since before they reach puberty. Don't make them find rally the way I did, by accident, walking around in the rain 4,000 miles from home in some unpronouncable Snowdonian hamlet. We -- WE -- need to take responsibility for taking this sport to the next level in north america, in our lifetimes. What's to lose? John, even? Does the NY Yankees spending $200MM/yr on baseball salaries for players from all over the world hurt your local triple-AAA team? Double A? Winter League? College team? High school? Little league? Fantasy Football? Retail sports outlet? Newspaper/magazine/website/video game? No, trickle-down rallynomics would work -- it would help preserve the lofi DIY scene you love. We just haven't done this right yet. Yet.

10. Less arguing, more rallying. Self-explanatory.

11. Contingency money from EVERY possible manufacturer of anything even vaguely related to motorsport. I work with a team of junior salespeople who have talked middle-american enterprise out of *millions* of dollars this year, starting from scratch late last year. I bring this up only to point out that raising money is not hard when you can offer RETURN ON INVESTMENT. Somewhere out there in rally-la-la-land we need a room full of professional deal-makers getting class-championship and contingency funds set up at a far more comprehensive and motivating level than we have today. Maybe this is a chicken|egg problem, and we need better media coverage before we can attract more prize/sponsor money, to attract more drivers to more rallies... but we've got to start somewhere.

Basically: I don't care why the chicken crosses the road (or under which sanctioning body's auspices, or in what kind/class/year of car, etc) as long as the chicken is making pendulum turns.

-Isaac

I believe Matt Johnson will be doing the same with his.

And Lurch freekin drives the piss out of ANYTHING(you should see him in his poor Protege street car). I cant wait to see him back on the stages more.

I urge all in PGT next year to come out & REALLY play. HARD. BRING IT.

I wish Stephan V was gonna still be around.

And... JVL... If you actually RACE next year, in ANY rally, I will try my darndest to be there, with a Rally TV camera op or 2, and compete against you. I only wish I had 2 identical cars. If I did, I would challenge you to a duel, cuz you sure talk the talk...

Oh yeah, JVL- If you havent seen Dennis' driving- buy a DVD(I dont recall seeing your name on the sales lists), and support us supporting the sport. He is exciting, cuz he isnt afraid to wreck. Same with Jake Himes, and I am sure there are a few others I cant think of right now...

JC
#595
www.rally-tv.com
www.gnimotorsports.com

where do you young little boys get off being so goddam cocky?
Am I supposed to be impressed with you driving a stock GTI??
>
>I believe Matt Johnson will be doing the same with his.
If you gut ARE driving the piss out of your cars, then I expect you better beat Pat Richard.
>
>And Lurch freekin drives the piss out of ANYTHING(you should
>see him in his poor Protege street car). I cant wait to see
>him back on the stages more.

But get Lurch in a honest talkative mood and he might just let slip that his old VW was faster, might have something to do with a decent gearbox or specifically a good ring and pinion.
However the truth is he is approximately on par with a young fellow out here in the NW named Nate Tennis in a VERY VERY mild spec _1974_ Saab 99.
>
>I urge all in PGT next year to come out & REALLY play. HARD.
>BRING IT.
>
>
>I wish Stephan V was gonna still be around.

It seems as though the coin dropped and he realised there was no point in indebtting himself for nothing.
>
>And... JVL... If you actually RACE next year, in ANY
>rally, I will try my darndest to be there, with a Rally TV
>camera op or 2, and compete against you. I only wish I had 2
>identical cars. If I did, I would challenge you to a duel,
>cuz you sure talk the talk...
>

Hey, JC, just curious, how many events have you been in?
>
>Oh yeah, JVL- If you havent seen Dennis' driving- buy a
>DVD(I dont recall seeing your name on the sales lists), and
>support us supporting the sport. He is exciting, cuz he isnt
>afraid to wreck. Same with Jake Himes, and I am sure there
>are a few others I cant think of right now...
>
>JC
>#595
>www.rally-tv.com
>www.gnimotorsports.com

John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Has it ever occurred to you that it might just be a little old man that's pi$$ing them off?

I was feeling a little cocky. Hence the comments.

JVL, I have only competed in:
LSPR 02
S*D 03
Cadillac 03
LSPR 03
S*D 04

So, you may consider me a Seed 5 Noob. That's OK by me. I am. I wasnt looking to impress you really. My statement was more of a promise to all, and a little smack talk to try to encourage other PGT'ers to go after it a little harder next year, along with me.

However... I grow a little weary of hearing that you are so disapointed with everyone's rallying & "you could do better". I would honestly like to see you do better. Seriously. I bet lots of others on this forum would too. If that means I eat a little crow after calling you out & getting spanked, so be it. I am old enough to be able to do that without too much trouble. Maybe loser buys the beer?

Unfortunately, I must agree with you on one point. There ARE some people out there mid pack that simply arent driving hard. Dont know why, but they arent. I am sure they have their reasons(probly money related). The funny thing is, some of those people are sporting "Pro" tags. That part I dont understand. But, everyone has their own thing. IF we ever had MONEY to race for, I bet LOTS of people would step up their efforts on stage. Maybe someday...

I am doing everything I can to help grow interest in the sport, and gain exposure for all (without jeopardizing my family's well being of course). I would hope that others are doing the same. I believe they are.

Hopefully I secure the necessary funding to race out there in the NW in 05. If/when I do, I hope that you(JVL) show up in any form(competing or otherwise). If nothing else, I imagine we could have an interesting conversation regarding how slow we are and why.

Thanx for keeping things lively!

JC
#595
www.gnimotorsports.com

As for old, coming from a guy somewhere in his mid 60s and who looks it, well that's preety good, indeed typical of Pete.
>
>I was feeling a little cocky. Hence the comments.
>
>JVL, I have only competed in:
>LSPR 02
>S*D 03
>Cadillac 03
>LSPR 03
>S*D 04
>
>So, you may consider me a Seed 5 Noob. That's OK by me. I
>am.
That's what I thought, but those are some good events, Lake Superior is the last event I did where things were just the usual chaos, and the motor not about to die. had a lot of fun and got spanked by a few guys in some nice cars including a much younger Mike Hurst in a (his words)POS Nissan 200 (Silvia) with a nice FJ20 motor, Sam Bryan in a nasty Gp2 Saab 900 that I supplied all the goodies for (That's OK Sam was faster than me 97% of the time.) And got 13 minutes of MTC points from my co-driver blowing check-ins.

>and a little smack talk to try to
>encourage other PGT'ers to go after it a little harder next
>year, along with me.

Oh, OK, it's a generational thing.
C'est ce 'smack talk'

Shouldn't smoke that stuff.
>
>However... I grow a little weary of hearing that you are so
>disapointed with everyone's rallying & "you could do
>better". I would honestly like to see you do better.
>Seriously.

Already have, just before your time.

>I bet lots of others on this forum would too.

That might mean they would have to search archives and they are quite incomplete.

But read what I wrote to Dennis Martin, I've been doing motorsports stuff since the late 1960s, I'm not as jazzed about racing as I once was, hell I was _retired_from professional moto-cross when I was 29.
I mean in one month when I was doing Internationals, I did an average of 5 events and some months 7 with all the Catholic holidays in the spring, every holiday was an excuse for an International.
So don't give me sh!t if I concentrate on doing some things that many of you guys have done already like having a family.

>that means I eat a little crow after calling you out &
>getting spanked, so be it. I am old enough to be able to do
>that without too much trouble. Maybe loser buys the beer?

We are all losers unless you win and even that is only for a day.
>
>Unfortunately, I must agree with you on one point. There ARE
>some people out there mid pack that simply arent driving
>hard. Dont know why, but they arent. I am sure they have
>their reasons(probly money related). The funny thing is,
>some of those people are sporting "Pro" tags. That part I
>dont understand. But, everyone has their own thing. IF we
>ever had MONEY to race for, I bet LOTS of people would step
>up their efforts on stage. Maybe someday...

Well that IS the point of this thread JC.
If we tell potential sponsors that this is an rough and tumble exciting sport with thill-a-minute action, then they ACTUALLY see those Slo-pro guys, we've just screwd not just our selves for any deal you or i may have but we've torpedoed the Sports credibility.
>
>I am doing everything I can to help grow interest in the
>sport, and gain exposure for all (without jeopardizing my
>family's well being of course). I would hope that others are
>doing the same. I believe they are.

Well I'm doing what I can, that's for sure.
>
>Hopefully I secure the necessary funding to race out there
>in the NW in 05. If/when I do, I hope that you(JVL) show up
>in any form(competing or otherwise). If nothing else, I
>imagine we could have an interesting conversation regarding
>how slow we are and why.

part of the why might be thsat so many are spending so much on the CAR and not the competition bits that make it into a _RALLY_ car.
Again look at what I said to Dennis re Sam Bryan, he bought the cheap Opels I kept finding for $125-$150 and would find the limit, step over it and crash 'em and be back for the next event with all the REAL bits plugged into the fresh shell. For years.

Can't do that when your car cost 20,000 to 35,000 plus prep unless you're really really rich.
>
>Thanx for keeping things lively!

Well I was pissed at seeing all the talk of "promotion" of a car which averages 31 mph on the stages.
>
>JC
>#595
>www.gnimotorsports.com

John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat